The Long View: Srini Gopalan, CEO of T-Mobile

“The Angle” Music

Cold OPEN “We're building an incredible AI capability. And I think we shouldn't shy away from the fact that we could be disrupted as well. I don't think we've even scratched the surface of the disruptive part of the technology.”

Eric Veiel

Hi, I'm Eric Veiel, head of global investments at T Rowe Price. Welcome back to The Angle, a podcast for curious investors. Just a reminder that outside of the U.S., this podcast is for investment professionals only. In this episode, I'm excited to welcome Srini Gopalan, CEO of T-Mobile, one of the largest and fastest growing mobile carriers in the U.S.

Srini, thanks so much for being here with us on The Angle. Really appreciate it.

Srini Gopalan

Oh, thanks for having me.

Eric Veiel

I thought maybe we'd start. It's a it's really interesting. So, you know, you joined T-Mobile not even a full year ago. And you're your CEO and you're off and running, but you've got a really interesting story. You know, you sort of educated in India, have worked in Asia, you've worked in Europe, you're now in the U.S. again. Maybe tell us a little bit about, about you, about your backstory and how you got to be where you are today.

Srini Gopalan

Thanks so much, Eric. It's a pleasure to be on this. I've actually been associated with T-Mobile for a long time, so I've joined management in the last year, but I've been on the board for nearly eight years. My backstory. Well, I grew up in India, went and worked for Unilever in my first job. And, India has over a million mom and pop stores. So my first job was selling soap and detergent to mom and pop stores. Did that for a period of time. One hell of an education. There's nothing like, you know, door to door sales, effectively, to cut your teeth. Teach you some humility along the way.

And then worked for what was then Andersen Consulting. And when Anderson Consulting had I think, 35 people in India, they have something like 700,000 now and they’re called Accenture. But that was way back when, and then got married and, my wife's Indian as well. We moved to the UK to join what was then a startup, Capital One. They'd but just gone public in the US and decided to go international. So, I was one of the early, early employees of Capital One International. But I thought it was time to explore a different industry. And along came mobile telephony.

Worked for; started actually at T-Mobile UK and worked on the joint venture that led to Orange and T-Mobile UK merging. Then went and worked for Vodafone for four years running their consumer business. And the kids were six and eight at that point in time. And they'd never really lived in India. They've gone there as tourists and we felt was kind of important that they go experience India as people living in India because sense of roots, heritage, all of that. Went back and worked for a very close friend of mine who ran this, who, still runs actually this incredible company, Airtel. Incredible company. Loved working there. Learned tons. Along the way, though, Delhi became the most polluted city in the world. And the kids were wearing masks before Corona.

Eric Veiel

Before pandemic?

Srini Gopalan

Yeah, before the pandemic. So we decided it was time to move back to Europe at that point. Came back to Europe. And ran the Central and Eastern European businesses for Deutsche Telekom. I was on the board of T-Mobile US. And then, a year ago, Mike and I had had a whole bunch of conversations. He was talking about transitioning out, me coming in as COO. So that played through, so I am based in Seattle now, and a loving T-Mobile.

Eric Veiel

Not a bad time to be living in Seattle. The city is pretty excited right now. So I think a lot of listeners know T-Mobile, you know, as one of the big three carriers at this point. But I think that really understates the firm's growth. Right. If we just look back even to 2020, you know, 41 million, postpaid subscribers today, I think you guys just announced results over 86 million. So more than a doubling. And it to me, it's this classic case of business school textbook counter positioning. Right. The un-carrier. Maybe just describe a little bit about what it meant to be the un-carrier and how that's played into where you all are.

Srini Gopalan

So much of that is about culture, mostly. I mean, the two things that struck me from 2017, I think, which is the first time I visited T-Mobile as a director. One: every conversation starts with customer pain points. So you sit in on a conversation on a new product launch and a lot of other places it starts with the business case. What's amazing is, at T-Mobile, it starts with the customer pain point and almost the story or the script. What would we be saying to customers? Why should they care about this? And that is that is incredible. And it allows us to, we come to the economics last. It's not that they're not important, but it's once you figure out how to do what you want to do, you then work your way to what you need to believe, to imagine that this would be profitable, which is just a unique way of thinking about this.

And the second bit is the frontline culture. I mean, we often say there are only two kinds of people at T-Mobile, those who serve our customers and those who serve those who serve our customers. That culture is just. I think, a combination of those two. It is what has created this incredible company. I think one of the big liberating things of this customer first and front line first approach is we we don't approach this as an incumbent. We approach this as what makes sense, and how do we make the economics work?

Eric Veiel

So this is something that I really wanted to spend a minute on, because we spend a lot of time looking for businesses with network effects where, you know, the more customers you get, it improves the value of the product. And there's, you know, many examples of that, the social networks being the most obvious. This strikes me as something that has reverse network effects, right? The more people that get on, the slower it becomes. But you're trying to grow this, how do you how do you square that circle that you've added all of these people and yet the service has gotten better.

Srini Gopalan

So we have a network effect and it's called word of mouth, right? Which is a phenomenal network effect. And we're seeing that at play in our business. The reality is what we have today, just in terms of capacity, is so large that we're not even scratching the surface of what we can do. And there's and if you look at what creates capacity in a network, it's three things. It's the spectrum that you have. Part of our spectrum covers 70% more geography than anyone else has been back on the spectrum. We have more towers. And that's a legacy of history, right? When we used to have mid frequency, which meant you needed a denser grid, but now that's helping us massively. More towers, more spectrum, but what controls it is the core network. It's effectively, if you think of it, the software that controls the hardware, we moved to the most modern core network in 2021. Now that gives us incredible ability to optimize capacity. And we're blessed with the fact that the smartest brains in the world are working on how to make mobile networks more efficient, because the speed of evolution of wireless technology is way ahead of cable. It's it's leapfrogging.

Eric Veiel

It feels like there's an AI question in here in terms of being able to really do this kind of, you know, efficiency of the route, like make this even more efficient. Is there an incremental leap forward that you think you'll make with AI, or is this going to be just more of, you know, a slow, steady improvement?

Srini Gopalan

We're already using huge amounts of AI to optimize our network. I'll just give you an example. The winter storm fan. Right. When that happened, immediately, we used AI to figure out who was impacted, actually started tilting our antennas so that we could direct them towards the people. And this was all what we call a self-optimizing network, right? It was entirely done without human intervention. This was using AI and using our self-optimizing network. And we landed up in less than 60 minutes in a place where we had, where we had problems we recovered. Now some were things like actually the tower going down or stuff like that, which which is harder. Physical stuff is harder. Yeah, right.

But that's a good example of already using AI. I think as we think about how AI evolves, it'll evolve in two ways from a network perspective. One, I think there will be a quantum jump in efficiency as we use more and more AI into our network. But I also think as we start using more AI in our network, our network moves from just processing bits and bytes to processing tokens because we will need it. Now think of that if we're, if we have a network which is processing bits and bytes and tokens, what else could those tokens be used for? When you think of factory automation but low latency network, which also processes tokens, we will be in a great place to help industries automate because our network at that point won't just process bits and bytes, but also drives.

Eric Veiel

Interesting. Have you, you know, one of the other things I wanted to talk about was, enterprise and sort of, you know, building your, your presence there where I think you are still behind the, the legacy competitors, is this, is this a way into the enterprise over time?

Srini Gopalan

Absolutely. I mean, I think there's kind of 2 or 3 big routes for us, into, into enterprise. Right. And we're growing already because things like, the first is using the differentiation of our network. I mean, New York City, where we are right now, we, the first responders in New York City, are now on T-priority. And T-priority, again, is something unique that we've been able to build because we moved to the 5G core earlier. It's a slice, effectively, giving first responders a dedicated amount of my network. Right. It's they get priority, density priority. And it's a slice that only they can use. That's been a big breakthrough in enterprise and government. I think the second piece is more and more of them, test extensively before they buy. And I think the third vector that will really help us, and, scale in enterprise and government is as you get into things like factory automation, as you get into things like robotics.

Eric Veiel

Let's, let's pivot to the kind of the main, the main business to to the mobile side. How would you describe the current state of the, of the mobile industry right now, just from a competitive perspective?

Srini Gopalan

Look, our industry goes through phases of heavy promotions of people promoting in and promoting out. Right. But there's a direction of flow of the river and that tends to be towards where there's more differentiation. Right? Because you can only promote your way into differentiation up to a point. Our focus on what I'm obsessed with is how do we take the best network and make it even better? How do we take best value and make that even better? How do we take best experience and make that even better? How do we continuously differentiate because that's what's going to create success in the long term in this business.

Eric Veiel

One of the things that I think you all have been working towards as part of this is, you know, expanding your presence in the rural markets, right? It's been a spot where you've under punched your weight a little bit relative to others. So I guess we get to see lots of commercials of famous people wandering through the desert talking about how great everything is.

Srini Gopalan

Billy Bob.

Eric Veiel

So, I don't spend a lot of time wandering through the desert, but I'd be curious, what your strategy is there, and how important that is to that next phase of growth for the company.

Srini Gopalan

Really important. When we talk about small markets and rural areas. Right. The reality is 40% of America lives there. It's a huge targetable population. It's consumers who historically have been starved for choice, both on the wireline or the broadband and the wireless side. Our market share there five years ago used to be 13%. Today it's 24%. And when you're sitting at 24%, you've got a lot of upside left in small markets and rural areas. And the heart of that, again, goes back to the simple formula of best network, best value, best experience. And so we're we really like our progress there. And we think there's a ton of upside left of that.

Eric Veiel

Is there? Maybe this fits in with this, this conversation, but is one of the differentiators, I think, that you all have is a partnership with Starlink to provide and like the super remote areas, at least an ability to text and do some other basic stuff, maybe describe that as a feature. And is that something that you think about from a replication perspective in terms of the competitive landscape?

Srini Gopalan

Great question. So, Starlink's not been the central unlock in small markets and rural areas. That's a really important product. We'll come back and talk about that. But, but our momentum in small markets in rural areas has been long before, we got into T-satellite, because T-satellite is relevant, but like I said, small markets in rural areas was 40% of the American population. It's not just those living in highly remote areas. But T-satellite itself has been a great partnership with Starlink. We've, the objective of the partnership was the end of dead zones. Right. And again, this is T-Mobile thinking about this from a customer centric manner and say we're sick of these dead zones. 500,000mi² of this country aren't covered by any wireless network.

And that's where Starlink came from. And our engineers, along with the Space-x and Starlink engineers, developed something which is the first in the world which is making direct to sell work, which is a hard thing to make work because we've got, you know, satellites flying at quite a speed, connecting with a mobile phone, which is often traveling. Right. It's it's a tough gig to pull that off. And we're very proud of that partnership. And how hard we work to engineer the solution.

Eric Veiel

Is there is there any world where this introduces eventually a fourth competitor into the market in some way? If Starlink has a different way to deliver service, or is it just a different a different value proposition?

Srini Gopalan

Our view is direct to sell. It's, you look at the physics and the economics of it, and it's best as a complementary service. Broadband. Starlink broadband. On the other hand, I think can be substitutional in large parts of the country.

Eric Veiel

Yeah, a lot of market for potentially both of you to go after at some point. But that that makes some sense.

Eric Veiel

Maybe think about, I'm just curious how you think about, you know, coming into this role. I'm going to I'm going to pivot a little bit to, to the leadership style here and some of the things that you've been working on or that you've been you've been talking about. So you come in, the companies or, you know, you've been involved with it, it's been doing really well. But you have to sort of put your stamp on things, or maybe you don't. How have you thought about transitioning into the role of CEO from a company that ostensibly is doing really well?

Srini Gopalan

It's a great question. I've never really talked about jobs I do as putting my stamp on it. It's just very real. It's not the way I think about and process the world. It's in the end, I think what makes T-Mobile great is the way we think about customers and the way we think about employees. And my job is to stokethat and is to widen that differentiation. It's to make us, it's to drive the future. So that the best lies ahead of us, not behind us. And that's the thing that I'm singularly focused on, which is why a lot of the conversations we have are about widening differentiation. I find it really limiting view of the world to think of this from kind of an egocentric what stamp of I put on it. It's so much more fun to be in a world where I can do this job and say, look, we were a great company and we became greater. We were a great company. We were very differentiated. We became even more differentiated. Customers got more value out of us, investors got more value out of us, and employees continued seeing this crazy progression we've been seeing. And the real question for me is, what do we need to unlock for that to be true? And I think, having spent time in the company, I think the unlock continues to be widening differentiation. It's it's stoking the stuff we're great at and pushing that forward.

Eric Veiel

Is there, I'm sure for you and like there are for all CEOs right now, there's the constant drumbeat of thinking about how to apply AI. We talked a little bit about from the network perspective, but all the other parts of the business, from customer service to basic FPNA, all the way through. And for some employees, that's exciting, and they rise to the challenge. And for others it's like, oh my gosh, how do I protect my current job? How are you navigating that?

Srini Gopalan

I think the, two separate pieces to that. I think one on the how we use AI, this is going to sound repetitive, but the way we think of that as we start with customers. What, what problem can we solve.

Eric Veiel

It’s not repetitive, it's just consistent.

Srini Gopalan

It's like we used AI because we, we figured the biggest issue customers face in this category is switching. So we launched Easy Switch, powered by AI to make switching easier. And We know language is a huge problem. Today we launched Live Translate. Using AI to enable customers to speak to each other in two different languages, yet completely understand each other. That's mind blowing. It's, we use AI for what we call customer driven coverage, which is planning our coverage not based on some vanity stat of how many what population do you cover, but where people work, live, and play? How do we optimize our network for what customers do? And so that's a big way we think about AI as a whole.

And we don't start AI projects based on what cost it will take out, because our going in position is most of our cost exists because we created a problem for the customer. Right. Let's invest in the things that minimize those problems that take away those problems. And a simple example would be, you know when, when you call our care centers, our agents will receive a whisper in their ears which says this is what the person is probably calling about, based on an analysis of their bill. So that's that's where we think about the use of AI.

To your second piece of, you know, workforce and where people are. I think that's, that is a genuine fear in people's minds. I think what we're learning to do, and I don't think we're there as yet, this is something that me and my team are working hard to - is how do you talk to people about AI in all honesty, and how do you help them get ready for what's coming in terms of the skills they need to build? Right. Because I think the papering over AI doesn't make sense and honestly doesn't make you credible with your workforce.

Eric Veiel

I, I often steal a quote from when I had Sarah Fryer of OpenAI on this podcast and she basically framed it this way, which I think is really powerful. It's, it's don't have, don't tell your employees to worry about AI taking your job, but there's a good chance that somebody that uses AI better than you might take your job. So go be that person.

Srini Gopalan

And I think that there's I don't think we're there here. And this is something that me and my leadership team are talking a lot about, but but changing the AI narrative so that people have some agency. Because I think what's frustrating for employees is the lack of agency. It's when it gets down to them. Right. And I think what Sarah's talking about, their spot on because it's about giving people back their agency.

Eric Veiel

Yeah, that's that's really powerful. One of the, actually the questions I wanted to ask you when we were talking about, the business, the core business, is the form factor itself. Right. And so you, you know, people think of you as a mobile phone provider. But, I mean, if you, it's not hard to imagine that in five, ten years, maybe we're not even carrying around phones anymore. How do you think about that impact on your business? And I guess I would segue that with, you know, when you look at your income statement, you've got, you know, 16 billion in revenue from selling equipment and 21 billion in expenses from selling that same equipment. So we often joke, you know, it's hard to make up, on volume and negative gross margin there. But but how do you think about the form factor over time and what that means for you?

Srini Gopalan

I think the form factor is an exciting conversation. I'm not really sure it fundamentally changes our business because our business is serving needs where people want to get connected. I don't think that need goes away. We want to be entertained. I don't think that need goes away. Right. Want that to be available anytime, anywhere? I don't think that need goes away now. Now, what devices will service that need? We'll see. They'll be different form factors. They'll be different ways of using it. But I think the, the great thing about our business is the fundamental human need to be connected, to be entertained, and increasingly, the need to be able to choose where and how I do that. I don't think that changes.

Eric Veiel

One of the things that's important for a CEO is to really understand capital allocation. And you all are generating a good amount of cash flow through time. You've done, you know, some really smart M&A. You've also been pretty consistent in buying back stock and paying, a nice dividend. How do you think about the capital allocation going forward from here for the company?

Srini Gopalan

So we think about, we've got a fairly structured standard framework we use. We start with leverage. And what is what should leverage be? Because that sets the envelope. And our current views, two and a half times EBITDA. That's a view we question from time to time. Right now, we still believe in the current environment. That's the prudent view to have. We then go from that to what are the needs of the core business. So what is my what do I need from a, from a, a wireless network CapEx? What do I need to drive a good existing core business? Then we look at M&A and we've spent a minute on that. I mean, with the M&A we've done we've done some small M&A in the t-ad space US cellular. Fiber, where we have a clear vision on how we allocate capital there. We, we like our JV structure not just because it's relatively more capital light, but also there's a; this is a new business that we're learning. So there's a risk sharing there. It's also we're not the experts on digging up streets to lay fiber. Do we like spectrum? Absolutely. Are we committed to be the spectrum leader. Absolutely. Does that mean we'll buy spectrum at any price? No. We walked away from EchoStar because we thought it was too expensive. And that's the discipline in both the core business and M&A.

Eric Veiel

Well into the extent that you can use an advantage of your cash flow generation to, you know, capture a scarce resource or corner a scarce resource like spectrum or something like that, I think is probably always tempting.  And can, can pay dividends, but comes with a higher level of risk. And balancing that I'm sure is part of that conversation.

Srini Gopalan

Absolutely. I mean, the way we do make the spectrum decision is getting quite brutally analytical from a, you know, we have a choice. We could buy that spectrum, or we could densify our network. What's the NPV of one versus the other? How do we think about the free cash flows of that? And then of course there's a strategic overlay. Right, if there's a particularly scarce spectrum.

Eric Veiel

Is the value of that spectrum in somebody else's hands versus my own.

Srini Gopalan

Exactly. What's the game theory of the. So, but that's how we think of each of those decisions.

Eric Veiel

I mean, I’ll pivot us back a little bit to the, to the leadership side, just, you know, one of the things as investors that we spend a lot of time trying to do is learn from our mistakes because we all make them. I'm just curious if you've had one or two, you know, moments it can be when you were, you know, before, you know, you know, your time at T-Mobile or some other place that really left a mark on you that that you've learned from. And, and a sort of.

Srini Gopalan

Absolutely. I've had my share of mistakes. I'll talk about one when I was, a very young CEO, I think I was 34 at that point in time at Capital One.

Eric Veiel

That's a young CEO.

Srini Gopalan

And, we were an amazing organization, and they're still an amazing organization at core competence at that point. Now, it's a lot about digital at that point. You know, in many ways, Capital One was the first fintech. Scale fintech. When things that are called machine learning and AI today, we were doing by hand, and our core competence was just underwriting better than anyone else. Now, I love that analytical skillset. And on the basis of that, made the assumption that we could do go do a bunch of other stuff, and that, from things that really weren't our core competence. Right. Including, scaling some of back the our IT development, insourcing some of the things we weren't so good at doing, like collections. Now, since then, obviously Capital One has become a lot better at those things. But, the at that taught me a real lesson on how do you define tightly and sharply the things the organization is great at doing and stoke that. And when you venture away from that, tread cautiously or make sure it's in the neighborhood of what the organizations created doing. And your instincts should start with, don't do it. And challenge that really hard. Because I landed up, you know, two and a half years later, reversing a lot of that because we weren't that good at it. Now, that might have been my experience. That might have been, what the organization could do at that point in time. But it taught me some deep lessons on just how far away you stray from your core.

Eric Veiel

Yeah, it's one of those things that, I think we all have found in our in our experiences when you try something new, being willing to admit that it was not the right decision is often really hard. And owning it, being intellectually honest and backing it out is, is sometimes hard, but it's almost always the right thing to do, even if in the short term it is quite painful. What advice do you give to young people today when they're asking you about, you know, career advice? And how do I, you know, how do I become you?

Srini Gopalan

That's a scary thought in itself. But, I think a couple of things, that I talk a lot about. One, I think there's a sweet spot between what you're good at and what you enjoy. And, it could take you a long time to find that sweet spot, but it's a lovely place to be because then you can truly be yourself. Because actually coming to work is fun. And the minute it's a chore, or one of those two things are, is not working right, either you're not good at it or you're not having fun at it, right? And it also doesn't always mean that, you know, you have fun at what you're good at, or that you're good at what you have fun. Finding that sweet spot of what you're good at and what you have fun doing, I think, importantly, allows you to, to, be yourself at work and just be comfortable in your own skin. And that makes a huge difference from my perspective, just in terms of the extent to which you allow other things to distract you. And I think the other pieces, I personally believe planning your career is overrated. It's just massively overrated.

Eric Veiel

So many twists and turns that you can't anticipate.

Srini Gopalan

How are you going to predict the stuff? Right? I'd love to say I planned and charted my way. That’s just not true.

Eric Veiel

None of us have. Yeah. No. No way. Yeah. It's interesting. I often get asked, you know. Well, you know, when you were my age, did you know exactly what you wanted to do? I was like, I kind of had a sense that I liked the markets, but beyond that, no.

Srini Gopalan

Yeah, I kind of had a sense of, I have a lot of fun, working with people I like. And working with people I admire and the rest. And I like solving interesting problems.

Eric Veiel

There's a lot of stress in your job. I think you're a runner, I've been told. Is that your main stress release or are there other things that you do to try to.

Srini Gopalan

Well, there's a few things. I run long distances very slowly.

Eric Veiel

Okay.

Srini Gopalan

So I have a lot of time to unwind. I love the blues. And so I probably know, in most cities I've been to, the underrated but outstanding blues bar. So strong blues and, in Manhattan place. And family is a big source of de-stressing for me because, be honest, none of them really understand what I do. And they're not that interested. Because, my wife works for the UN. Our daughter is, a pre-med, and our son wants to be an astrophysicist. So they're not particularly interested, which is great, because I get to switch off completely.

Eric Veiel

When I think about, the next kind of, if we were sitting down here three, let's just say three years from now, what's the one thing that we haven't talked about that you think will have a profound impact on T-Mobile?

Srini Gopalan

That’s a great question. I'd like, and I know we've talked a bit about where AI is going. I think there's another angle there which will have a profound impact, which is I think all sorts of industries will be disrupted. I know we talked about a lot about our context, and I think there's a huge opportunity for us to be the disruptor, just because we have so much more data. We're building an incredible AI capability. And I think we shouldn't shy away from the fact that we could be disrupted as well. I don't think we've even scratched the surface of the disruptive part of the technology. I know people are getting freaked out about software and what that does to it, but I.

Eric Veiel

And this week, financial services got a little taste of it.

Srini Gopalan

There's a little taste of it. I think the only way you deal with that is you're you're constantly thinking about how you could be disrupted, and how you could disrupt others using it. And that's that. That's three years from now. I think we will be in a different world. I don't, I wish I knew what that word would be, but I think it will be different.

Eric Veiel

Well, it's interesting because of your company and my mind is sort of the classic case of, you know, judo economics or, you know, using, counter positioning. So it's somewhat in your, you know, DNA to, to be that disruptor.

Srini Gopalan

And that's why the maintaining that DNA and that culture is the center of a lot of what I obsess about. Because the minute we lose that and the minute we become a comfortable incumbent, we have a problem.

Eric Veiel

That's right. All right. Well, I look forward to catching up with you in a couple of years of seeing who you've disrupted, as long as it's not, the investment management business.

Srini Gopalan

Thank you so much.

Eric Veiel

Thanks a lot for being here, Srini, I appreciate it.

Srini Gopalan

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Eric Veiel

Again, I'm Eric Veiel. Thank you for listening to The Angle. We look forward to your company on future episodes. You can find more information about this and other topics on our website. Please rate and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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